Just learned the same PIE root gave us German "Deutsch" (people) and "Teuton" (tribe), and Russian "чужой" (other people), and Latin "totus" (whole); thanks John!
I agree that when we ban words it can do more harm than good. I admit I hesitate to share this podcast with friends because of the issue's complexity and a desire to not add unintended harm or offense. But I do feel banning words is like banning books. If we can't even discuss why the word is offensive or, as you noted, mention it to educate or satirize (that Jeffersons episode was striking), it may send others to seek the word without understanding and, in turn, make the lobbing more attractive to those who want to lob to begin with.
On the other hand, banning the word for those who don't want to lob certainly makes it a lot easier to recognize those who do. I wonder if that's part of it? Make it easier to tell the enemy from the friend, perhaps? Like with the shift in journalists' pronunciation of Ukrainian Keev and Russian Key-ev, is it about being more easily able to tell who is on what side of the issue with no doubt as to intent? In any case, I will share this podcast with friends, because I believe in the value of the distinction and the need to parse complexity. Thank you for the illumination. :)
By the way, I both make and love eating chicken Kiev. It's pounded-thin chicken breast wrapped around an herb-packed ball of butter, breaded, and fried or baked. It's some tasty stuff. But now I question... is it Russian or Ukrainian in origin? Usually a food is named for the origin city or chef, but I always thought it was a Russian dish, not Ukrainian. Should I have been calling it chicken Keev all along? ;)
I've noticed this in other contexts as well. Lately I have been watching Quantum Leap where the character had many episodes in the Jim Crow south. The word came up. In addition, other slurs are censored, for instance an episode that was praised for highlighting what people with learning difficulties go through used the r-word to try and take away the power of the word. Yet in more recent times they've censored the word, despite the fact that this obviously was intended to make an argument for treating people with learning difficulties better.
One day after listening to this episode I went into the office to discuss the Russian invasion. In a sentence I said "Kee-yev" to which my colleague responded "it's Keev," to which I responded, "well, actually..."
I recently learned that the "Gypsy Moth" is being renamed as the Spongy Moth. Apparently "Gypsy" is considered a slur by the Romani people. Moreover, there is new sensitivity about associating an invasive pest with a particular people or nationality. https://www.entsoc.org/sites/default/files/Spongy-Moth-Flyer.pdf
One odd thing I've noticed is a difference between what's said in the various forms of media vs. what's said on the streets.
I've heard white girls outside nightclubs addressing each other as "n***a."
I was at a restaurant and overheard 2 women talking. One said, "Yeah. She knows how to make a n***a feel good." Referring to HERSELF as a n***a.
She was explaining how it was her birthday that night and she needed to get home because a lady was coming over to make her feel good. I turned and looked, and they were 2 Hispanic women sitting at the table having this discussion.
This word is very complicated and fascinating. In these cases it's being used like an expression of swagger.
Thank you for this great episode! I am a teacher and, recently, at a district meeting, I attended a presentation about how to decolonize our curricula. In said presentation, the host, referencing the work of Du Bois, mentioned, nonchalantly, as if everyone already knew, "the other N-word", offering us a protective trigger-warning, in case we, of our own accord, read the poetry the presenter was referencing. Working in a hyper-woke environment, and coming from a hyper-woke and hypersensitive teacher-preparation program, I understood immediately what was meant by "the other N-word". Let us say that it is the Spanish word for black (I am a Spanish teacher). This is a word that I recall being acceptable (with good taste and limited/educational use, of course) to reference, for example, historic baseball leagues, or required literature in middle- and high-school. I was flabbergasted, and marveled at my colleague's unquestioning acceptance of this (if they were paying attention or even understood). I found myself wondering, as a Spanish teacher: will the day come that I must describe, in Spanish, the absence of light waves reflecting as, "la otra palabra ene"? In Spanish, a word so common, that 500 million people use? Would be curious to hear Mr. McWhorter's thoughts on this. Thank you for your work!
Paul Auster in his very recent bio of Stephen Crane mentions the word where necessary to understand Crane’s literary works. Its mention also helps us understand the world Crane inhabited in the Gilded Age, between middle class respectability and his beloved bohemia. The book would not make sense without the mention.
I agree with your argument, and Joe Rogan makes the use/mention distinction too. Missy's video is a pretty good argument for 'Joe really wants to mention it a lot', though. I suspect he 'wants' to use it to tweak the wokistas - a whole different category of transgression. Now, if only he hadn't made that 'Planet of the Apes' joke...
Just learned the same PIE root gave us German "Deutsch" (people) and "Teuton" (tribe), and Russian "чужой" (other people), and Latin "totus" (whole); thanks John!
I agree that when we ban words it can do more harm than good. I admit I hesitate to share this podcast with friends because of the issue's complexity and a desire to not add unintended harm or offense. But I do feel banning words is like banning books. If we can't even discuss why the word is offensive or, as you noted, mention it to educate or satirize (that Jeffersons episode was striking), it may send others to seek the word without understanding and, in turn, make the lobbing more attractive to those who want to lob to begin with.
On the other hand, banning the word for those who don't want to lob certainly makes it a lot easier to recognize those who do. I wonder if that's part of it? Make it easier to tell the enemy from the friend, perhaps? Like with the shift in journalists' pronunciation of Ukrainian Keev and Russian Key-ev, is it about being more easily able to tell who is on what side of the issue with no doubt as to intent? In any case, I will share this podcast with friends, because I believe in the value of the distinction and the need to parse complexity. Thank you for the illumination. :)
By the way, I both make and love eating chicken Kiev. It's pounded-thin chicken breast wrapped around an herb-packed ball of butter, breaded, and fried or baked. It's some tasty stuff. But now I question... is it Russian or Ukrainian in origin? Usually a food is named for the origin city or chef, but I always thought it was a Russian dish, not Ukrainian. Should I have been calling it chicken Keev all along? ;)
Lots to unpack, here. I love it.
As always, well reasoned and informative
I've noticed this in other contexts as well. Lately I have been watching Quantum Leap where the character had many episodes in the Jim Crow south. The word came up. In addition, other slurs are censored, for instance an episode that was praised for highlighting what people with learning difficulties go through used the r-word to try and take away the power of the word. Yet in more recent times they've censored the word, despite the fact that this obviously was intended to make an argument for treating people with learning difficulties better.
One day after listening to this episode I went into the office to discuss the Russian invasion. In a sentence I said "Kee-yev" to which my colleague responded "it's Keev," to which I responded, "well, actually..."
>日本 (Mandarin rì běn)
The pronunciation of rì isn't quite accurate. I'd say it's more like an American r held for some time (with a falling tone).
>a time traveller from 1995 wouldn't know what a podcast is
Surely you could explain it as a radio show that you can listen to whenever you like?
I recently learned that the "Gypsy Moth" is being renamed as the Spongy Moth. Apparently "Gypsy" is considered a slur by the Romani people. Moreover, there is new sensitivity about associating an invasive pest with a particular people or nationality. https://www.entsoc.org/sites/default/files/Spongy-Moth-Flyer.pdf
As a Senior, some 15 years older than John, I've found not one reason in life to use the Word.
What it feels like is that our whole culture has gotten cruder. Things we would never
consider saying are being said. Yet we were saying things that would scandalize our
Grandparents!!
Did anyone consider that it is an unnecessary word?
One odd thing I've noticed is a difference between what's said in the various forms of media vs. what's said on the streets.
I've heard white girls outside nightclubs addressing each other as "n***a."
I was at a restaurant and overheard 2 women talking. One said, "Yeah. She knows how to make a n***a feel good." Referring to HERSELF as a n***a.
She was explaining how it was her birthday that night and she needed to get home because a lady was coming over to make her feel good. I turned and looked, and they were 2 Hispanic women sitting at the table having this discussion.
This word is very complicated and fascinating. In these cases it's being used like an expression of swagger.
Thank you for this great episode! I am a teacher and, recently, at a district meeting, I attended a presentation about how to decolonize our curricula. In said presentation, the host, referencing the work of Du Bois, mentioned, nonchalantly, as if everyone already knew, "the other N-word", offering us a protective trigger-warning, in case we, of our own accord, read the poetry the presenter was referencing. Working in a hyper-woke environment, and coming from a hyper-woke and hypersensitive teacher-preparation program, I understood immediately what was meant by "the other N-word". Let us say that it is the Spanish word for black (I am a Spanish teacher). This is a word that I recall being acceptable (with good taste and limited/educational use, of course) to reference, for example, historic baseball leagues, or required literature in middle- and high-school. I was flabbergasted, and marveled at my colleague's unquestioning acceptance of this (if they were paying attention or even understood). I found myself wondering, as a Spanish teacher: will the day come that I must describe, in Spanish, the absence of light waves reflecting as, "la otra palabra ene"? In Spanish, a word so common, that 500 million people use? Would be curious to hear Mr. McWhorter's thoughts on this. Thank you for your work!
Use the "N" word in front of any middle-aged white woman - then duck!
Paul Auster in his very recent bio of Stephen Crane mentions the word where necessary to understand Crane’s literary works. Its mention also helps us understand the world Crane inhabited in the Gilded Age, between middle class respectability and his beloved bohemia. The book would not make sense without the mention.
“The cultural inhabitants of a place or an ethnicity get to decide what they want, or don’t want, to be called”
Tell that to our “latinx” brothers and sisters.
Although the tide may be shifting on that, it certainly has been a weird couple of years
I agree with your argument, and Joe Rogan makes the use/mention distinction too. Missy's video is a pretty good argument for 'Joe really wants to mention it a lot', though. I suspect he 'wants' to use it to tweak the wokistas - a whole different category of transgression. Now, if only he hadn't made that 'Planet of the Apes' joke...